Summary · 摘要
In this episode of The Trauma-Informed Lawyer podcast, host Myrna McCallum — a Métis Cree lawyer — interviews Gabor Maté about the profound gap between what modern trauma science knows and what legal professionals are taught. Drawing on Maté’s own unsettling experience as an expert witness in a Vancouver murder trial, the conversation moves through neurobiological mechanisms of trauma, the courtroom as a re-traumatizing environment, and the transformative potential of compassionate inquiry applied to legal practice. Maté argues that the vast majority of people who enter the justice system do so as a direct consequence of unhealed childhood trauma — a claim he grounds in neuroscience and peer-reviewed research, not personal opinion.
The interview ranges from how traumatic memory distorts witness testimony (and why courts routinely misread that distortion as dishonesty) to why judges and lawyers carry their own unexamined triggers into courtrooms. Maté calls for a root-and-branch reform of legal education to include trauma awareness, interpersonal neurobiology, and compassion — not as a soft add-on, but as a prerequisite for delivering genuine justice. He closes with an extensive reading list for lawyers who want to close the gap themselves.
在《创伤知情律师》播客的这一集中，主持人、梅蒂斯克里族律师米尔娜·麦卡勒姆采访了加博尔·马泰，探讨现代创伤科学与法律从业者所受教育之间的巨大鸿沟。以马泰本人作为温哥华一起谋杀案专家证人的亲身经历为引，对话涵盖创伤的神经生物学机制、法庭作为重复创伤环境，以及将慈悲探询方法应用于法律实践的变革潜力。马泰认为，绝大多数进入司法系统的人都是未愈合的童年创伤的直接产物——这一论断植根于神经科学和同行评审研究，而非个人观点。
访谈涵盖创伤记忆如何扭曲证人证词（以及法庭为何习惯性地将这种扭曲误读为不诚实），以及法官和律师如何将自身未经审视的触发点带入法庭。马泰呼吁从根本上改革法律教育，纳入创伤意识、人际神经生物学和慈悲心——不是作为软性补充，而是作为实现真正正义的前提。他最后为希望自我弥补这一差距的律师提供了详尽的阅读书单。
Key points · 要点
[00:02:08] Maté was retained as an expert witness in a Vancouver murder case involving a defendant with a severe addiction history, to testify on how trauma-altered brain development affected the defendant’s state of mind. 马泰受聘为温哥华一起谋杀案的专家证人，就童年创伤如何改变大脑发育并影响一名有严重成瘾史的被告的精神状态出庭作证。
[00:04:41] Three forensic psychiatrists had all missed the defendant’s deeply traumatic childhood — an alcoholic father, a brother who broke the defendant’s arm and set fire to his hair at age four, and severe bullying. Modern brain science demonstrates that such experiences physically rewire brain circuitry, increasing vulnerability to addiction in two distinct ways: altered neurochemistry that makes the brain “cry out” for substances, and the drive to escape pain through addictive behaviour. 三名法医精神科医师均未发现被告深重的童年创伤——父亲酗酒、四岁时兄长折断其手臂并点燃其头发、遭受严重霸凌。现代脑科学证明，这些经历会从物理层面重塑大脑回路，并通过两条不同路径增加成瘾易感性：改变神经化学使大脑”渴求”物质，以及通过成瘾行为逃避痛苦的驱动。
[00:07:16] The prosecution successfully excluded Maté’s testimony by attacking his credentials rather than his science. Maté acknowledges he responded with hostility and arrogance — his own trauma triggers activating under perceived attack — and uses this as a live demonstration of exactly the interpersonal neurobiology he was trying to explain to the court. 检方通过攻击马泰的资质而非其科学论据，成功排除了他的证词。马泰承认自己以敌意和傲慢作出回应——在感到被攻击时，自身的创伤触发点被激活——并以此为现场示范，说明他试图向法庭阐明的正是这种人际神经生物学现象。
[00:09:18] Maté draws a pointed conclusion: if he — internationally credentialed, financially secure, with nothing existential at stake — could be so destabilised by courtroom procedure, what happens to a traumatised defendant whose fate genuinely depends on the outcome, who is already isolated and misunderstood even by their own psychiatric experts? 马泰得出一个尖锐的结论：如果他——一个拥有国际资质、经济无虞、没有任何生死攸关利益的人——都能被法庭程序如此动摇，那么一个命运确实悬于结果、已经孤立无援甚至连自己的精神科专家也不理解的创伤被告，又会遭遇什么？
[00:10:52] Both medical and law schools are decades behind the science: the average medical student receives zero lectures on trauma or its effect on brain development; law students similarly receive no trauma education. Maté cites Dr. Bessel van der Kolk’s estimate that approximately 90% of people in US jails are there because of childhood trauma. 医学院和法学院都落后于科学数十年：普通医学生在整个学业中不会接受任何关于创伤或其对大脑发育影响的讲座；法学生同样没有接受创伤教育。马泰引用贝塞尔·范德科尔克博士的估计，指出约90%的美国在押人员入狱的原因是童年创伤。
[00:12:54] Interpersonal neurobiology means one person’s facial expression, tone, and body language directly alter the biology of another’s brain — even over Zoom. When authority figures (judges, lawyers, doctors) carry disdain, judgment, or indifference, they physiologically trigger defensive circuits in already-traumatised individuals, causing aggression or freeze — behaviours courts then interpret as guilt or unreliability. 人际神经生物学意味着一个人的面部表情、语调和肢体语言会直接改变另一个人的大脑生物状态——即使是通过Zoom。当权威人物（法官、律师、医生）带着轻蔑、评判或冷漠，他们会从生理上触发已创伤化个体的防御回路，引发攻击或冻结反应——而法庭则将这些行为解读为有罪或不可信赖。
[00:19:03] The Jian Ghomeshi acquittals illustrate court system ignorance of traumatic memory: the complainants’ inconsistent clothing details and continued contact with Ghomeshi after the alleged assaults were treated as evidence of unreliability, when both are actually textbook features of traumatic memory. Perpetrators also select victims with laser precision — choosing those with weakened defences, boundarylessness, and vulnerability. 吉安·戈梅西案的无罪释放说明了法庭系统对创伤记忆的无知：投诉人关于服装细节的前后矛盾以及在所谓侵犯后继续与戈梅西联系，被视为不可信的证据，而这两者实际上都是创伤记忆的教科书式特征。加害者也以激光般的精准度选择受害者——选择那些防御薄弱、缺乏边界感和脆弱的人。
[00:22:41] The word “trigger” carries precise meaning: like the tiny trigger of a weapon, it matters only because of the explosive charge, the ammunition, and the delivery machinery behind it — all conditioned by the person’s life history. Disproportionate reactions in court are always a sign of trauma; the prefrontal cortex goes offline under stress, explaining stuttering, memory gaps, and disorganised testimony. “触发”一词有其精确含义：就像武器上微小的扳机，它之所以重要，是因为其背后的爆炸物、弹药和发射装置——所有这些都由当事人的生命史塑造。法庭中不成比例的反应始终是创伤的信号；在压力下前额叶皮层会下线，这解释了口吃、记忆空白和混乱的证词。
[00:26:15] Compassionate inquiry — the therapeutic approach Maté developed — is directly applicable to legal practice, since both disciplines centre on inquiry. The difference is whether that inquiry is conducted with hostility, indifference, or genuine compassion. Maté believes even a single day of compassionate inquiry training for lawyers would transform their practice. 马泰发展的治疗方法”慈悲探询”可直接应用于法律实践，因为两个领域都以探询为核心。区别在于这种探询是以敌意、冷漠还是真正的慈悲来进行的。马泰相信，哪怕只为律师提供一天的慈悲探询培训，也会彻底改变他们的实践。
[00:28:47] Trauma literally means “wound” in Greek. Unhealed wounds react with pain when touched — explaining the disproportionate courtroom reactions. Scar tissue is hard, thick, and numbing — explaining the emotional disconnection that allows a government lawyer to argue for closing a supervised injection site while knowing it will cost lives. “创伤”在希腊语中字面意思是”伤口”。未愈合的伤口被触碰时会产生剧烈疼痛——这解释了法庭中不成比例的反应。疤痕组织坚硬、厚实、麻木——这解释了那种情感断联，使一名政府律师能够在明知会造成死亡的情况下，仍主张关闭监督注射场所。
Selected quotes · 摘引
“The vast majority of people who end up in the court system, whether because of addiction or crimes related to addiction or aggression and so on, they’re there because of trauma.” — 00:10:20
进入法庭系统的绝大多数人，无论是因为成瘾、与成瘾相关的犯罪还是攻击性行为，他们身陷其中都是因为创伤。
“The overreaction, in other words, when the reaction seems to be out of proportion to the present stimulus is always a sign of trauma.” — 00:23:12
换言之，当一个人的反应似乎与当前刺激不成比例时，这过激的反应始终是创伤的信号。
“If I could spend a day with 20 or 300 lawyers teaching them compassionate inquiry, it would transform their practice.” — 00:27:15
如果我能花一天时间向二三百名律师传授慈悲探询，它将彻底改变他们的实践。
“It’s what we don’t know that we don’t know that gets us into trouble. So, if you realize that you don’t know it, that’s already a step forward.” — 00:30:52
让我们陷入麻烦的，是那些我们不知道自己不知道的事。所以，如果你意识到自己不知道，那已经是向前迈出了一步。
People & works · 人物与著作
Gabor Maté — interviewee; physician, author, and trauma/addiction expert whose courtroom experience anchors the discussion. 加博尔·马泰 —— 受访者；医生、作家，创伤与成瘾领域专家，其法庭经历是本次讨论的核心。
Myrna McCallum — host of The Trauma-Informed Lawyer podcast; Métis Cree lawyer and advocate for trauma-informed legal practice. 米尔娜·麦卡勒姆 —— 《创伤知情律师》播客主持人；梅蒂斯克里族律师，创伤知情法律实践的倡导者。
Bessel van der Kolk — psychiatrist cited by Maté; author of The Body Keeps the Score; estimates ~90% of US inmates are there due to childhood trauma. 贝塞尔·范德科尔克 —— 马泰引用的精神科医师；《身体从未忘记》作者；估计约90%的美国在押人员因童年创伤而入狱。
Peter Levine — trauma expert cited by Maté; author of Waking the Tiger and In an Unspoken Voice; his work on traumatic memory is described as deserving textbook status in law schools. 彼得·莱文 —— 马泰引用的创伤专家；《唤醒猛虎》和《以无声之声》作者；其关于创伤记忆的研究被描述为应成为法学院教科书。
Bruce Alexander — Vancouver psychologist cited by Maté; author of The Globalization of Addiction, addressing social forces driving addiction. 布鲁斯·亚历山大 —— 马泰引用的温哥华心理学家；《成瘾的全球化》作者，探讨驱动成瘾的社会力量。
Ruth Lanius — Canadian psychiatrist and trauma researcher cited by Maté as essential reading. 露丝·拉尼乌斯 —— 马泰引用的加拿大精神科医师和创伤研究者，被列为必读推荐。
Jian Ghomeshi — former Canadian broadcaster; his 2016 sexual assault acquittals are cited as a case study in how courts misread traumatic memory as unreliability. 吉安·戈梅西 —— 前加拿大广播员；其2016年性侵案无罪释放被作为案例，说明法庭如何将创伤记忆误读为不可信。
Daryl Hammond — comedian and Saturday Night Live cast member; his documentary Cracked Up (Netflix) on addiction and trauma history is recommended by Maté. 达里尔·哈蒙德 —— 喜剧演员及《周六夜现场》演员；马泰推荐了关于其成瘾与创伤历史的纪录片《崩溃》（Netflix）。
Patrice Band — Ontario judge cited by McCallum who urged lawyers to find less traumatising ways to present graphic evidence in court. 帕特里斯·班德 —— 麦卡勒姆引用的安大略省法官，曾敦促律师寻找在法庭上呈现图像证据时减少创伤影响的方式。
In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts — Maté’s book on addiction; cited in the context of his expert witness credentials. 《饥渴鬼魂的领域》 —— 马泰关于成瘾的著作；在其专家证人资质的讨论背景下被提及。
When the Body Says No — Maté’s book on hidden stress and its physical cost; listed among his credentials by McCallum. 《当身体说不》 —— 马泰关于隐性压力及其身体代价的著作；被麦卡勒姆列入其资质介绍。
Scattered Minds — Maté’s book on Attention Deficit Disorder; listed among his credentials. 《散乱的思绪》 —— 马泰关于注意力缺陷障碍的著作；被列入其资质介绍。
Hold On to Your Kids — parenting book co-authored by Maté; recommended by McCallum to her daughter and son-in-law. 《抓住你的孩子》 —— 马泰合著的育儿书籍；被麦卡勒姆推荐给其女儿和女婿。
Compassionate Inquiry — therapeutic approach developed by Maté; discussed as directly applicable to legal interviewing and courtroom practice. 慈悲探询 —— 马泰发展的治疗方法；被讨论为直接适用于法律访谈和法庭实践。
Source · 来源
- Original · 原始链接: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBO7_JFwGvg
- Channel/Show · 频道/节目: The Trauma Informed Lawyer (Myrna McCallum) · published 2026-03-04