Summary · 摘要
This two-and-a-half-hour conversation with Tim Ferriss is the most autobiographical long-form interview in the corpus, and it is structured as a slow descent from books to biography to method. Ferriss opens with the reading list Maté had supplied for Tribe of Mentors, and each title turns out to be a door into his life. The Scourge of the Swastika, pulled off his parents’ shelf in Budapest at ten or eleven, is where he first understood what had happened to the grandparents killed in Auschwitz and where the question that has driven his whole career — why do people make other people suffer — first seized him. Winnie-the-Pooh, read to him in a Hungarian translation he insists is funnier than the original, is about loss of innocence and about Eeyore’s determined victimhood, both of which he recognises in himself. Alice Miller’s The Drama of the Gifted Child, whose German title was Prisoners of Childhood, arrived in his forties when he was a successful physician and a depressed, workaholic father whose children were afraid of his rages; it was the first book that explained where all that came from.
The middle of the conversation is a working demonstration rather than a lecture. Maté gives his definition of addiction — any behaviour with craving and short-term relief, long-term negative consequences, and inability to stop, with nothing in it about substances — rejects both the American Society of Addiction Medicine’s primary-brain-disease framing and the moral-choice model that underwrites punishment, and then simply asks Ferriss to name his own addiction. Ferriss describes self-medicating adolescent depression with an ephedrine-caffeine-aspirin stack he first used for wrestling, and Maté walks the logic out loud: the euphoria, energy and optimism it delivered were exactly what was missing, so the addiction was never the primary problem but an attempt to solve one. From there he uses Ferriss’s own history to demonstrate ADHD as a developmental adaptation — asking what a person does when they can neither fight back, nor escape, nor call for help, and answering that the brain tunes out, and that when this happens while the brain is developing the tuning out becomes the default setting. He grounds it in his own infancy in occupied Budapest, where his mother’s terror was the environment he could not escape.
The scientific spine is the 2012 Pediatrics paper from the Harvard Center on the Developing Child, which he quotes at length: environments of scarcity, stress or instability produce short-term physiological and psychological adjustments necessary for immediate survival but costly to long-term learning, behaviour, health and longevity; and brain architecture is constructed through an ongoing process that begins before birth and is critically influenced by the mutual responsiveness of adult-child relationships. Around this he arranges the aggression-gene study in which the most and least aggressive subjects shared the same variant — a gene for sensitivity, not for aggression, so genes predispose but do not predetermine — and the origin of the ACE studies in Vincent Felitti’s obesity clinic, where patients who could lose weight but not keep it off told him they were stuffing down their pain. The obesity epidemic, on this reading, is an epidemic of stress.
The last hour turns to healing. Maté distinguishes traumatic events from trauma itself: the trauma is not what happens to you but what happens inside you — disconnection from emotion and body, difficulty being present, a negative view of self and world — which means recovery is literally re-covery, finding the self again, since the loss of self is the essence of trauma. He names the modalities he trusts: therapy, Peter Levine’s somatic experiencing, EMDR, tapping, and a fifty-minute daily yoga practice he took up only about eighteen months before this interview, after a lifetime of insisting his ADHD made him a non-yoga person. He tells the story of how ayahuasca found him on the In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts book tour, of weeping with love in a fifty-person ceremony, of realising he had closed his heart because his mother handed him to a Christian stranger in the street when he was one year old to save his life. He is careful about it: he does this work only a few weeks a year, warns about charlatans, and points out the cruel logic that trauma severs the gut feelings that would otherwise protect people from exploitation. He restates the attachment-versus-authenticity conflict — including a reading of Elvis’s “Anyway You Want Me” as a lack-of-love song — runs a live compassionate-inquiry exercise on Ferriss about a contractor who failed to do the work, and ends on hope, on his four books, on the American overdose toll as a 9/11 every three weeks, and on the insistence that none of this is only individual: a study linking racism to asthma in American Black women tells you that the disease belongs to a society, not a person.
这场与蒂姆·费里斯长达两个半小时的对谈，是本合集中自传色彩最浓的长访谈，其结构是从书籍缓缓下潜到生平、再到方法。费里斯先从马泰为《人生导师部落》提供的书单谈起，而每一本书都成了通往他生命的一道门。《卐字的荼毒》——他十岁或十一岁时从布达佩斯父母书架上搬凳子取下的那本——让他第一次明白死于奥斯维辛的祖父母身上发生了什么，也第一次把那个驱动他整个生涯的问题攫住了他：人为什么要让别人受苦。《小熊维尼》他读的是匈牙利译本（他坚称比英文原著更好笑），讲的是纯真的失去，以及屹耳那种执拗的受害者姿态——两者他都在自己身上认出来了。爱丽丝·米勒的《天才儿童的悲剧》（德文原题为《童年的囚徒》）在他四十多岁时出现：那时他是成功的医生，也是抑郁、工作成瘾、会暴怒到让孩子害怕的父亲；这是第一本让他明白这一切从何而来的书。
对谈的中段不是讲座，而是现场演示。马泰给出他对成瘾的定义——任何带来渴求与短期缓解、长期造成负面后果、而当事人无法停止的行为，其中完全不提物质——他否定美国成瘾医学会”原发性脑部疾病”的框定，也否定支撑惩罚制度的道德选择模型，然后干脆请费里斯说出自己的成瘾。费里斯讲述他如何用摔跤时开始服用的麻黄碱-咖啡因-阿司匹林组合自我治疗青春期抑郁，马泰当场把逻辑推出来：那种欣快、精力与乐观正是他缺的东西，所以成瘾从来不是首要问题，而是对某个问题的解决尝试。接着他借费里斯自己的经历演示 ADHD 作为发展性适应——他问：当一个人既无法反击、无法逃离、也无法求助时，他能做什么？答案是大脑会”抽离”；而当这件事发生在大脑正在发育之时，抽离就被写成了默认设置。他把这一切落回自己在被占领的布达佩斯度过的婴儿期：母亲的恐惧就是他无法逃离的环境。
科学骨架是哈佛儿童发展中心 2012 年发表于《儿科学》的论文，他大段引述：匮乏、压力或不稳定的环境会带来对即时存活必要的短期生理与心理调整，但对长期的学习、行为、健康与寿命代价高昂；而大脑的建筑结构是通过一个始于出生之前的持续过程建成的，并受成人—儿童关系的相互回应性关键影响。围绕这一骨架，他摆出那项攻击性基因研究——最具攻击性与最不具攻击性的人携带同一变异，那是一个关于敏感度而非攻击性的基因，所以基因只是易感，不是注定——以及 ACE 研究起源于文森特·费利蒂的肥胖门诊：那些能减重却守不住的病人告诉他，他们在往下压自己的痛苦。照此读来，肥胖流行病其实是压力流行病。
最后一小时转向疗愈。马泰区分了创伤性事件与创伤本身：创伤不是发生在你身上的事，而是发生在你内部的事——与情绪和身体失联、难以处于当下、对自己与世界形成负面看法——因此”康复”（recovery）字面上就是”重新找回”，找回自己，因为自我的丧失正是创伤的本质。他列出自己信任的方法：心理治疗、彼得·莱文的躯体经验疗法、EMDR、敲击疗法，以及他在这次访谈前约一年半才开始、每天五十分钟的瑜伽练习——此前他一辈子都坚称自己的 ADHD 注定与瑜伽无缘。他讲了死藤水如何在《空洞的心》巡回宣传途中找上他，讲了在五十人的仪式中因爱而流泪，讲了他如何意识到自己关闭了心门——因为一岁那年，母亲为救他的命，把他交给街上一位陌生的基督徒妇女。他对此十分审慎：这类工作他一年只做两三周，警告骗子横行，并指出一个残酷的逻辑——创伤切断的正是那些本可保护人不被剥削的直觉。他重述依恋与本真的冲突（包括把猫王的《Anyway You Want Me》读作一首”缺爱之歌”），就一位没把家里活干完的工人对费里斯做了一次现场的”慈悲探询”，最后落在希望上：他的四本书、美国用药过量死亡相当于每三周一次 9·11、以及一个坚持——这一切都不只是个人的：一项将种族歧视与美国黑人女性哮喘联系起来的研究告诉你，那种病属于一个社会，而不属于一个人。
Key points · 要点
[00:01:01] Born in Budapest in January 1944, two months before the German occupation; the day after the army marched in, his mother called the pediatrician, who said all his Jewish babies were crying — an infant picking up the mother’s terror. 1944 年 1 月生于布达佩斯，两个月后德军占领匈牙利；德军开进的第二天，母亲打电话给儿科医生，医生说他所有的犹太婴儿都在哭——那是婴儿接收到母亲的恐惧。
[00:02:33] Finding The Scourge of the Swastika on his parents’ shelf at ten or eleven, seeing the camp photographs and grasping what happened to his family; “why do people make other people suffer” became the motivating question of his life. 十岁或十一岁时在父母书架上找到《卐字的荼毒》，看见集中营照片，明白了家人身上发生的事；“人为什么要让别人受苦”成为他一生的驱动性问题。
[00:08:43] Alice Miller’s The Drama of the Gifted Child — German title Prisoners of Childhood — reached him in his forties as a successful but depressed, workaholic, raging father; “gifted,” he says, means sensitive. 爱丽丝·米勒的《天才儿童的悲剧》（德文题为《童年的囚徒》）在他四十多岁时出现——彼时他事业成功，却抑郁、工作成瘾、动辄暴怒；他说，“天才”其实是指敏感。
[00:12:25] Sensitivity explained by analogy: a tap on the shoulder is nothing, but a tap on a burn is excruciating even though the external event is identical — sensitivity magnifies pain, and also creativity, which is why so many creative people escape their pain through addiction. 用比喻解释敏感：拍你一下肩膀不算什么，但拍在烧伤处会疼得钻心，尽管外部事件完全相同——敏感既放大痛苦，也放大创造力；这正是许多有创造力的人以成瘾逃避痛苦的原因。
[00:30:33] His definition of addiction: any behaviour a person craves, finds pleasure or relief in short-term, suffers negative consequences from long-term, and does not give up — nothing in it about substances, so gambling, sex, shopping, work and eating all qualify. He rejects both the American Society of Addiction Medicine’s primary-brain-disorder-plus-genetics definition and the choice model that the legal system’s punishments rest on. 他对成瘾的定义：任何让人渴求、短期带来愉悦或缓解、长期造成负面后果、而当事人无法放弃的行为——其中完全不涉及物质，因此赌博、性、购物、工作与进食都算在内。他既否定美国成瘾医学会”原发性脑部疾病加遗传”的定义，也否定法律体系惩罚所依据的”选择”模型。
[00:35:10] Working live with Ferriss’s teenage ephedrine use for depression, he shows that the euphoria, energy and optimism were what was missing — so the addiction was an attempted solution, not the problem. 他就费里斯少年时为抑郁而服用麻黄碱一事现场推演：欣快、精力与乐观正是他所缺的——因此成瘾是一次解决尝试，而非问题本身。
[00:38:12] ADHD demonstrated as a defence: asked what he would do if verbally attacked and could neither assert himself, leave, nor seek help, Ferriss answers that he would shut down or tune out. 他把 ADHD 演示为一种防御：当被问到如果遭到言语攻击、又既无法维护自己、无法离开、也无法求助时会怎样，费里斯回答说，他会关闭或抽离。
[00:40:47] When that tuning out happens while the brain is developing it becomes the default setting; ADHD is therefore not an inherited disease but a coping mechanism that got programmed in — as, he adds, is depression, which literally means pushing the emotions down because they are too painful. 当这种抽离发生在大脑正在发育之时，它就成了默认设置；因此 ADHD 不是遗传性疾病，而是被写入程序的应对机制——他补充说，抑郁（depression）也是如此：它字面上就是把情绪往下压，因为它们太痛。
[00:47:59] He quotes the 2012 Pediatrics article from the Harvard Center on the Developing Child: environments of scarcity, stress or instability produce adjustments necessary for immediate survival but costly to long-term learning, behaviour, health and longevity. 他引述哈佛儿童发展中心 2012 年发表于《儿科学》的文章：匮乏、压力或不稳定的环境会产生对即时存活必要、却对长期学习、行为、健康与寿命代价高昂的调整。
[00:49:30] From the same paper: brain architecture is constructed through a process beginning before birth and critically influenced by the mutual responsiveness of adult-child relationships, so maternal stress hormones are already shaping the developing brain — material still not taught in most medical schools. 同一篇论文还说：大脑的建筑结构是通过一个始于出生之前的过程建成的，并受成人—儿童关系相互回应性的关键影响，因此母亲的压力荷尔蒙已经在塑造发育中的大脑——而这些内容至今仍未进入多数医学院的课程。
[00:53:34] The aggression-gene study in which the most and least aggressive subjects carried the same variant: the gene was for sensitivity, not aggression — genes predispose, they do not predetermine. 那项攻击性基因研究中，最具攻击性与最不具攻击性的受试者携带同一变异：那个基因关乎敏感度，而非攻击性——基因只带来易感，不构成注定。
[00:56:05] The ACE studies began in Vincent Felitti’s obesity clinic, where patients who could lose weight but not keep it off told him they were stuffing down their pain; on this reading the obesity epidemic is at bottom an epidemic of stress, and the ACE findings have since been replicated in other countries with the same results. ACE 研究起源于文森特·费利蒂的肥胖门诊：那些能减重却守不住的病人告诉他，他们在往下压自己的痛苦；照此看来，肥胖流行病归根到底是压力流行病，而 ACE 的结果此后在其他国家多次重复，结论一致。
[01:02:49] Compassionate inquiry contrasted with self-condemnation — “why did I do this” as a verdict versus as a genuine question — and the coping behaviour named the “stupid friend” that helped once and cannot learn to stop. 慈悲探询与自我谴责的对照——同一句”我为什么要这么做”，是判决还是真问题——以及被他称作”愚蠢的朋友”的应对行为：它曾经帮过你，却学不会停下来。
[01:03:53] Trauma is not the divorce, the depression, the alcoholism or the abuse; those are traumatic events. The trauma is the disconnection from emotion and body that happens inside you, and recovery means finding the self again. 创伤不是那场离婚、那份抑郁、那种酗酒或那些虐待；那些是创伤性事件。创伤是发生在你内部的、与情绪和身体的失联；而康复意味着重新找回自己。
[01:07:34] For reconnection he names therapy, Peter Levine’s somatic experiencing, EMDR, emotional-freedom tapping, and yoga — including his own daily fifty-minute practice, adopted after a lifetime of saying his ADHD made him a non-yoga person. 为了重新联结，他列举心理治疗、彼得·莱文的躯体经验疗法、EMDR、情绪释放敲击法与瑜伽——包括他自己每天五十分钟的练习；此前他一辈子都说自己的 ADHD 注定与瑜伽无缘。
[01:14:50] Ayahuasca found him on the In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts book tour: repeated questions he could not answer, then a Vancouver ceremony with fifty people where a baby cooed, tears of love came, and he saw how he had closed his heart. 死藤水是在《空洞的心》巡回宣传途中找上他的：一再被问到他答不上来的问题，然后是温哥华一场五十人的仪式，一个婴儿在咿呀作声，因爱而流的泪水涌出，他看见自己是怎样关闭了心门。
[01:33:04] The two fundamental needs restated: attachment, facilitated by the endorphin system — which is why heroin can feel like a warm hug to someone whose endorphin system never developed — and authenticity, which is gut feeling. 两种根本需求的重述：依恋，由内啡肽系统促成——这正是为何对内啡肽系统未曾正常发育的人来说，海洛因会像一个温暖的拥抱——以及本真，也就是直觉感受。
[01:59:12] A live compassionate-inquiry exercise: Ferriss’s anger at a contractor who did no work traces to the automatic assumption that he was not cared about or respected, which he agrees is not the first time. 一次现场的慈悲探询练习：费里斯对一位没干活的工人的愤怒，追溯到他自动生成的假设——对方不在乎、不尊重他；他承认这不是第一次。
[02:16:44] On the American opioid toll: overdose is the most common cause of death under fifty, the equivalent of a 9/11 every three weeks, without comparable public outcry — because the professions do not understand trauma. 谈美国的阿片类死亡：用药过量是五十岁以下人群最常见的死因，相当于每三周一次 9·11，却没有可比的公众声讨——因为各个专业行业不懂创伤。
[02:19:20] His closing wish: compassionate curiosity in place of self-judgment, and seeing all of this as social and multigenerational — illustrated by a study linking experienced racism to asthma risk in American Black women. 他的临别寄语：以慈悲的好奇取代自我评判，并把这一切看作社会性、跨代际的——他以一项将所经历的种族歧视与美国黑人女性哮喘风险相联系的研究为例。
Selected quotes · 摘引
Note · 说明：this is an unpunctuated auto-caption transcript; quotes are reproduced exactly as they appear, without restored punctuation. 本文引文取自无标点的自动字幕，按原样照录，未做标点还原。
“so in other words the addiction is not the primary problem it’s an attempt to solve a problem” — 00:35:10
换句话说，成瘾不是首要的问题，它是解决某个问题的一次尝试。
“so the tuning out then becomes programmed in is the default setting and that’s why a DD so not an inherited disease it’s not a disease at all it begins as a coping mechanism” — 00:40:47
于是这种抽离被写进程序，成了默认设置；所以 ADD 不是遗传性疾病，它根本就不是疾病，它一开始是一种应对机制。
“trauma is not what happens to you the traumas what happens inside you” — 01:04:25
创伤不是发生在你身上的事，创伤是发生在你内部的事。
“attachment is a survival need authenticity survival need but what happens if your authenticity threatens your attachment relationships” — 01:35:39
依恋是生存需求，本真也是生存需求——可是，如果你的本真威胁到你的依恋关系呢？
“not to see it as an individual issue it’s a social issue we live in a society that really does disconnect people” — 02:20:23
不要把它看成个人的问题，它是社会的问题；我们生活在一个确实让人彼此失联的社会里。
People & works · 人物与著作
Gabor Maté — the guest; recounts his birth in occupied Budapest, his path into medicine, palliative care and the Downtown Eastside, and his own ADHD, depression and workaholism. 加博尔·马泰 —— 嘉宾；讲述自己出生于被占领的布达佩斯、走入医学、姑息治疗与温哥华市中心东区的历程，以及他自己的 ADHD、抑郁与工作成瘾。
Tim Ferriss — the host; discloses his adolescent depression, his ephedrine-caffeine-aspirin use, and undergoes a live compassionate-inquiry exercise on camera. 蒂姆·费里斯 —— 主持人；坦承自己少年时的抑郁与麻黄碱-咖啡因-阿司匹林的使用，并在镜头前接受一次现场的慈悲探询练习。
The Scourge of the Swastika — the 1950s account of Nazi crimes, by a British civil servant and member of the House of Lords, that Maté read as a child in Budapest. 《卐字的荼毒》 —— 由一位英国公务员兼上议院议员所写、1950 年代出版的纳粹罪行纪实；马泰童年在布达佩斯读到此书。
Winnie-the-Pooh — read to Maté in Hungarian translation; he discusses Christopher Robin’s real-life relationship with his father and Eeyore’s determined victim attitude. 《小熊维尼》 —— 马泰童年听的是匈牙利译本；他谈到克里斯托弗·罗宾与父亲的现实关系，以及屹耳那种执拗的受害者姿态。
Alice Miller, The Drama of the Gifted Child — the Swiss psychoanalyst who left Freudian practice because it ignored trauma; German title Prisoners of Childhood. 爱丽丝·米勒《天才儿童的悲剧》 —— 这位瑞士精神分析师因弗洛伊德式方法忽视创伤而放弃它；该书德文题为《童年的囚徒》。
Don Quixote and the Dhammapada — the other two books Maté names; Quixote as the deluded but truer-hearted seeker of justice, the Dhammapada for the teaching that we create the world with our minds, to which Maté adds that the world first creates our minds. 《堂吉诃德》与《法句经》 —— 马泰提到的另外两本书；堂吉诃德是那位迷妄却更真诚的求义者，《法句经》则教导我们以心创造世界，而马泰补充说：世界先创造了我们的心。
Harvard Center on the Developing Child / Pediatrics (2012) — the research summary Maté reads aloud on early adaptation and on brain architecture built through adult-child responsiveness. 哈佛儿童发展中心 /《儿科学》(2012) —— 马泰当场朗读的研究综述，论及早期适应，以及经由成人—儿童回应性建成的大脑结构。
Vincent Felitti and the Adverse Childhood Experiences studies — the San Diego internist whose obesity-clinic patients told him they were stuffing down pain, leading to the ACE research. 文森特·费利蒂与”童年逆境经历研究” —— 这位圣迭戈内科医生的肥胖门诊病人告诉他，他们在往下压痛苦，由此引出 ACE 研究。
Peter Levine, Waking the Tiger and somatic experiencing — named by Maté as a friend and as a body-based route back into connection. 彼得·莱文《唤醒老虎》与躯体经验疗法 —— 马泰称其为朋友，并将该方法列为回到联结的身体路径。
EMDR, emotional-freedom tapping, sensory-motor integration, yoga — the other reconnection modalities Maté lists; he credits a daily practice from the Inner Engineering programme taught by Sadhguru’s teachers. EMDR、情绪释放敲击法、感觉运动整合、瑜伽 —— 马泰列出的其他重联方法；他提到自己每天练习的是萨古鲁门下所教的”内在工程”课程。
Ayahuasca work — Maté’s decade of preparation-and-integration retreats with trained shamans, following a first ceremony in Vancouver during the In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts book tour. 死藤水工作 —— 马泰与受过训练的萨满合作、以准备与整合为核心的十年闭关实践；起点是《空洞的心》巡回宣传期间在温哥华参加的第一场仪式。
MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) and Rick Doblin — named in the discussion of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy and psilocybin research, alongside the Heffter institute and Johns Hopkins studies Ferriss has supported. MAPS（跨学科迷幻药研究协会）与里克·多布林 —— 在讨论 MDMA 辅助心理治疗与裸盖菇素研究时被提及，同时提到赫夫特研究所与费里斯资助过的约翰霍普金斯研究。
Bill Wilson and Alcoholics Anonymous — Maté notes Wilson’s own childhood abandonment and LSD experiences, and that AA discusses neither the trauma nor the psychedelic part of its founder’s story. 比尔·威尔逊与匿名戒酒会 —— 马泰指出威尔逊自己童年被遗弃的经历与他的 LSD 体验，并指出 AA 既不谈创伤，也不谈其创始人故事中的迷幻药部分。
Gordon Neufeld, Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers — Maté’s co-authored parenting book on peer orientation, using the image of a duckling imprinting on whatever is available when the mother duck is not. 戈登·诺伊费尔德《守住你的孩子：为什么父母要比同伴更重要》 —— 马泰与其合著的育儿书，论”同伴导向”，并以小鸭在母鸭不在时会对任何在场之物形成印刻为喻。
Scattered, When the Body Says No, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts — Maté’s other three books, on ADHD, on the stress-disease connection, and on addiction respectively. 《散落的思绪》《当身体说不》《空洞的心》 —— 马泰的另外三本书，分别关于 ADHD、压力与疾病的关联，以及成瘾。
Vicky Dulai — co-founder with Maté of Compassion for Addiction, credited in the episode description and named in the conversation as the mutual friend who prompted several of its threads. 维姬·杜莱 —— 与马泰共同创办 Compassion for Addiction；节目简介中提及，对谈中也被称为促成若干话题的共同朋友。
Dan Siegel and interpersonal neurobiology — cited near the close for the claim that our brains are wired together and we are not isolated creatures. 丹·西格尔与人际神经生物学 —— 在结尾附近被引用，用以支持”我们的大脑是彼此连线的、我们并非孤立生物”这一论点。
Tony Robbins, Jack Kornfield, Chade-Meng Tan, Gavin de Becker, Ramana Maharshi, Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash — figures cited in passing for, respectively, an intensive personal-development event, loving-kindness (metta) meditation and its introduction, The Gift of Fear, the parable of wrapping the world in burlap versus wearing shoes, “Anyway You Want Me” read as a lack-of-love song, and a Cash song from the Dead Man Walking soundtrack that Maté plays at his events (its title is garbled in the captions and is not reproduced here). 托尼·罗宾斯、杰克·康菲尔德、陈一鸣、加文·德·贝克、拉马纳·马哈希、猫王、约翰尼·卡什 —— 对谈中顺带提及的人物，分别关于一场高强度成长活动、慈心（metta）冥想及其引介、《恐惧给你的礼物》、“给世界包麻布还是给自己穿鞋”的比喻、被读作”缺爱之歌”的《Anyway You Want Me》，以及马泰在活动上常放的一首出自《死囚漫步》原声带的卡什歌曲（字幕中歌名讹误，此处不予转录）。
Source · 来源
- Original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9B5mYfBPlY
- Channel/Show · 频道/节目: Tim Ferriss · published 2018-03-07
- Registered from the Notion「GaborMate 阅览室」播客视频 / 文字讲稿 collection.