Summary · 摘要
In this 54-minute conversation on the Soma Podcast, host Mehran Seyed Emami speaks with Dr. Gabor Maté about the mass protests that erupted in Iran in late December 2025, met with extreme state violence estimated to have killed tens of thousands. Maté situates the crisis within Iran’s long history of colonial intrusion, broken promises, and cyclical repression — from the 1953 CIA-backed coup through the Islamic Revolution and decades of theocratic rule — while refusing to position himself as an authority on Iranian psychology. His central argument is that the current bloodshed is the latest wave in a centuries-long current of trauma, and that what Iranians carry is also a deep cultural resilience forged through that same history.
在这段长达54分钟的对话中，Soma播客主持人梅赫兰·赛义德·伊玛米与加博尔·马泰博士就2025年12月底爆发、随后遭到极端国家暴力镇压的伊朗大规模抗议展开讨论，估计死亡人数达数万之众。马泰将这场危机置于伊朗漫长历史的背景之中——从1953年由中情局支持的政变、伊斯兰革命到数十年的神权统治——同时拒绝以伊朗心理权威自居。他的核心论点是：当前的血腥镇压不过是百年来伊朗创伤长河中的最新一波浪潮，而伊朗人在这段历史中也淬炼出了深厚的文化韧性。
The conversation broadens into a trauma-informed analysis of polarization: why people regress to black-and-white thinking in moments of collective crisis, why diaspora communities feel an exacerbated helplessness that expresses itself as moral outrage online, and why the demand for certainty produces dogmatism. Maté also engages the victim-perpetrator-savior triad at both the political level (debating Western and Israeli intervention) and the psychological level, arguing that each pole exists within every individual and that internal work is the prerequisite for more effective political engagement. He closes with counsel drawn from the Bhagavad Gita and Rumi: act from your truest self, release attachment to outcomes, and practice kindness over righteousness.
对话进而延伸至创伤视角下的极化分析：为何人们在集体危机时刻会退行至非黑即白的思维；为何流亡社群会感受到一种被放大的无力感，并以网络道德义愤的形式宣泄出来；以及为何对确定性的渴求最终导向教条主义。马泰还在政治层面（就西方和以色列干预展开辩论）与心理层面，对受害者-施害者-救世主三角结构加以审视，认为这三种角色存在于每个人内心，内在功课是更有效政治参与的前提。他以《薄伽梵歌》和鲁米的教导作结：从最真实的自我出发行动，放下对结果的执着，以善意代替争论谁对谁错。
Key points · 要点
[00:02:38] Maté opens by acknowledging the limits of his expertise: he can offer general observations but cannot claim authority on the psycho-emotional reality of Iranians living through the crisis. 马泰首先承认自身知识边界：他能提供一般性观察，但无法声称对身处危机中的伊朗人的心理情感现实拥有权威。
[00:03:38] Iran’s long civilizational history — including the Shahnameh’s depictions of eternal struggle between domination and benign forces — gives the Iranian people a form of cultural resilience: “we’ve been through this.” 伊朗悠久的文明史——包括《列王纪》中对支配力量与善性力量之间永恒斗争的描绘——赋予伊朗人一种文化韧性：“我们经历过这一切。”
[00:04:40] He traces a line of compounding trauma: the 1953 Western-backed coup, the Shah’s repressive rule, the Islamic Revolution’s broken promises, the Iraq-Iran war instigated at Western behest with poison gas, and decades of economic sanctions that punished ordinary people far more than the regime. 他梳理了一系列叠加的创伤：1953年西方支持的政变、沙赫的镇压统治、伊斯兰革命的食言、西方幕后策动的伊伊战争中的毒气战争，以及数十年来远比政权受伤更深的经济制裁对普通民众的惩罚。
[00:12:59] When collective crisis hits, the capacity for integrative thinking — the developmental achievement of holding “I love you and I’m angry with you” simultaneously — collapses under fear and grief. This regression is normal, not a moral failing, especially for diaspora communities who feel helplessness without any avenue for direct action. 集体危机降临时，整合性思维的能力——“我爱你，但我也对你愤怒”这一发展性成就——在恐惧与悲痛下崩溃。这种退行是正常的，而非道德失败，对于无法直接采取行动的流亡社群尤其如此。
[00:22:16] On the question of whether nonviolent protest can succeed: historically, peaceful demonstrations only topple regimes when the army withdraws its support. As long as the military defends the government, peaceful protest alone cannot succeed — Maté cites the Russian February 1917 revolution and the French Revolution as examples where the army stood down. 关于非暴力抗议能否成功的问题：从历史来看，和平示威只有在军队撤回支持时才能推翻政权。只要军队仍效忠政府，单靠和平抗议就无法成功——马泰以1917年俄国二月革命和法国大革命为例，说明军队在这两次事件中均选择了袖手旁观。
[00:35:09] “Not feeling safe” is not a feeling — it is a perception. The actual feeling underneath is usually fear or discomfort. When people say a different opinion makes them feel unsafe, they are really afraid of the loss of their identity, not of a genuine physical threat. Distinguishing feelings from perceptions is essential for political dialogue to remain possible. “感到不安全”不是一种情感，而是一种感知。其下隐藏的真实情感通常是恐惧或不适。当人们说不同意见让他们感到不安全时，他们其实是害怕失去自我认同，而非面对真实的身体威胁。区分情感与感知是政治对话得以延续的关键。
[00:40:18] The victim-perpetrator-savior triad exists within every individual, not just in political structures. Projecting one’s own unintegrated shadow onto external actors — whether a regime or a would-be liberator — perpetuates collective cycles. Internal work reduces that projection. 受害者-施害者-救世主三角结构不仅存在于政治结构中，也存在于每个个体内心。将自身未整合的阴影投射到外部行为者身上——无论是政权还是自命的解放者——都会延续集体循环。内在工课能够减少这种投射。
[00:49:38] Citing the Bhagavad Gita’s concept of “inaction in action,” Maté argues that solitude and inner peace are not synonymous with passivity. The question is not whether to act but who is acting — the perpetrator, the victim, the savior, or the calmer, truer self. 援引《薄伽梵歌》“行动中的无为”概念，马泰认为独处与内心平静并不等同于消极被动。问题不在于是否行动，而在于是谁在行动——施害者、受害者、救世主，还是更平静、更真实的自我。
[00:51:42] The demand for certainty produces dogmatism and rigidity. Accepting uncertainty as the basic condition of human life is a psychological and spiritual discipline, not a political concession. 对确定性的渴求滋生教条主义与僵化。接受不确定性为人类生命的基本状态，是一种心理与精神修炼，而非政治退让。
Selected quotes · 摘引
“In times of crisis, and look, let’s face it, something horrible has just happened. Something horrible has just happened. However you may explain the historical or economic antecedance. Um what happened was that people went peacefully to demonstrate uh expressing genuine concerns and genuine aspirations and it ended up in a blood bath.” — 00:13:29
在危机时刻，不论历史或经济背景如何解释，事实是：人们带着真实的诉求和愿望和平地走上街头，最终却以流血收场。
“There’s no such thing as not feeling safe. That’s kind of a roundabout. There’s such a thing as feeling fear. Fear is necessary for life.” — 00:35:40
“感到不安全”并不存在，这是一种迂回的说法。存在的是感到恐惧。恐惧对生命是必要的。
“Practice being kind instead of being right. Practice being kind instead of being right.” — 00:52:12
练习善意，而非争论对错。练习善意，而非争论对错。
“You’re entitled to your work but not to the fruits of your work. You can’t control the results. So you can do what you’re moved to do but don’t be attached to the results in the sense of taking it personally.” — 00:31:00
你有权从事你的工作，但无权要求其果实。你无法控制结果。你可以做你内心驱动你去做的事，但不要以一种将其视为个人得失的方式执着于结果。
People & works · 人物与著作
Gabor Maté — Canadian physician, trauma expert, and author; lead guest offering trauma-informed analysis of the Iranian protests and their psychological dimensions. 加博尔·马泰 —— 加拿大医生、创伤专家与作者；本视频主讲嘉宾，从创伤视角分析伊朗抗议及其心理层面。
Mehran Seyed Emami — host of the Soma Podcast and Iranian-Canadian interviewer; his personal connection to Iran (his father died as a political prisoner) grounds the conversation in lived experience. 梅赫兰·赛义德·伊玛米 —— Soma播客主持人与伊朗裔加拿大访谈者；其父作为政治犯去世的个人经历为对话提供了切身的现实锚点。
Jafar Panahi — Iranian filmmaker whose film It Was Just an Accident (2023) Maté encountered in New York; Maté cites it as a work combining moral indignation, humor, and resilience that captures the Iranian condition. 贾法尔·帕纳西 —— 伊朗电影导演，其影片《这只是一场意外》（2023）令马泰在纽约深受震动；马泰称这部作品以道德义愤、幽默与韧性相融合的方式呈现了伊朗人的处境。
Martin Scorsese — American director who interviewed Panahi at the New York screening Maté attended; mentioned in passing. 马丁·斯科塞斯 —— 美国导演，在马泰观影的纽约放映会上采访了帕纳西；仅简短提及。
Almaas (A.H. Almaas) — Maté’s cited spiritual teacher; quoted: “If anybody wants to save the world, the world needs to be saved from them.” 阿尔马斯（A.H. 阿尔马斯）—— 马泰援引的精神导师；被引用：“如果有人想拯救世界，世界就需要从他们手中被拯救。”
Karim Sadjadpour — Iran analyst (Carnegie Endowment); quoted by the host as describing Iran as “a zombie regime, a dying ideology, a collapsing legitimacy.” 卡里姆·萨贾德普尔 —— 伊朗问题分析师（卡内基国际和平基金会）；被主持人引用，称伊朗为”僵尸政权、垂死的意识形态、崩溃的合法性”。
The Myth of Normal — Gabor Maté’s book; mentioned by the host in the introduction. 《正常的神话》—— 加博尔·马泰著作；主持人在开场介绍中提及。
In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts — Gabor Maté’s book on addiction; mentioned by the host in the introduction. 《饥饿幽灵的国度》—— 加博尔·马泰关于成瘾的著作；主持人在开场介绍中提及。
When the Body Says No — Gabor Maté’s book on stress and disease; mentioned by the host in the introduction. 《当身体说不》—— 加博尔·马泰关于压力与疾病的著作；主持人在开场介绍中提及。
Scattered Minds — Gabor Maté’s book on ADHD; mentioned by the host in the introduction. 《分裂的心智》—— 加博尔·马泰关于多动症的著作；主持人在开场介绍中提及。
Bhagavad Gita — Hindu epic scripture Maté cites for the concepts of “inaction in action” and detachment from the fruits of one’s labor. 《薄伽梵歌》—— 印度教史诗经典，马泰援引其”行动中的无为”与”不执着于行动果实”的概念。
Rumi (Jalal ad-Din Rumi) — Persian Sufi poet; both Maté and the host cite Rumi. Host quotes: “Everything has to do with loving and not loving. That’s all.” 鲁米（贾拉鲁丁·鲁米）—— 波斯苏菲诗人；马泰与主持人均援引鲁米。主持人引用：“一切都关乎爱与不爱。就这些。”
Endless Holocausts: Mass Death in the History of the United States Empire — book Maté references while discussing the track record of Western imperial intervention. 《无尽的大屠杀：美利坚帝国史中的大规模死亡》—— 马泰在讨论西方帝国主义干预记录时所引用的书目。
Shahnameh (Book of Kings) — Persian epic by Ferdowsi; Maté cites it as evidence of Iran’s cultural depth and resilience. 《列王纪》（沙赫纳梅）—— 菲尔多西的波斯史诗；马泰援引此书为伊朗文化深度与韧性的佐证。
Source · 来源
- Original · 原始链接: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAnAUSFfpVk
- Channel/Show · 频道/节目: پادکست سـُــمـا Soma Podcast · published 2026-01-25