Summary · 摘要
In this wide-ranging conversation hosted by Dr. Shefali Tsabary, Dr. Gabor Maté presents the central thesis of his book The Myth of Normal: that what Western industrialized culture treats as normal — from how we birth and raise children, to how we structure adult relationships and work — is profoundly abnormal from the standpoint of human biological and emotional needs. The two physicians trace a through-line from disrupted early attachment (suppressed maternal instinct, sleep training, excessive screen exposure) through the psychophysiology of childhood trauma, and onward into adult chronic illness, addiction, ADHD, narcissism, and the erosion of present-moment awareness. They argue that diagnoses such as ADHD and depression describe rather than explain, and that the actual explanations lie in adverse early environments — both the overtly harmful and the quietly neglectful.
在由谢法利·扎巴里博士主持的这次广泛对话中，加博尔·马泰博士阐述了他的著作《正常的神话》的核心论点：西方工业化文化所认为正常的事物——从我们如何分娩和养育孩子，到成人关系与工作的结构方式——从人类生物和情感需求的角度来看，是深刻异常的。两位医师追溯了从早期依恋断裂（母性本能受压、睡眠训练、过度使用屏幕）到童年创伤的心理生理学，再延伸至成年期慢性疾病、成瘾、多动症、自恋，以及当下意识的侵蚀这一完整脉络。他们认为，多动症和抑郁症等诊断只是描述现象而非解释原因，真正的解释在于不利的早期环境——无论是显性伤害还是隐性忽视。
Key points · 要点
[00:01:02] The word “normal” in medicine denotes a healthy range; Maté argues that what our culture calls normal is biologically and emotionally abnormal — departing from the conditions under which humans evolved. “正常”一词在医学上指健康范围；马泰认为，我们文化中所谓的”正常”从生物和情感层面来看是异常的——偏离了人类赖以进化的生存条件。
[00:03:06] Across hunter-gatherer and indigenous societies, infants were never put down; leaving a distressed infant unpicked-up floods the baby’s brain with cortisol and actively impairs brain development. 在狩猎采集社会和原住民社会中，婴儿从未被放下；不抱起哭泣的婴儿会使大脑充满皮质醇，从而主动损害大脑发育。
[00:05:42] Stress begins before birth: maternal emotional states during pregnancy affect fetal brain development, yet prenatal care rarely addresses the mother’s emotional health. 压力在出生前就已开始：母亲在孕期的情绪状态会影响胎儿大脑发育，但产前护理几乎从不关注母亲的情绪健康。
[00:08:17] Trauma is not only what is done to a child; it is also the absence of what the child needs — the “small traumas” of not being seen, heard, or permitted to feel all emotions lead to physiological changes via the mind-body unity (psychoneuroimmunology). 创伤不仅是对孩子所做的事，也是孩子所需之物的缺失——未被看见、倾听或允许感受所有情绪的”小创伤”通过身心统一（心理神经免疫学）导致生理变化。
[00:09:18] A longitudinal study of “super-mom” attachment — mothers who gave exceptional emotional connection — found their children were the mentally healthiest at age thirty, disproving the belief that babies can be spoiled. 一项关于”超级妈妈”依恋的纵向研究——给予超凡情感联结的母亲——发现她们的孩子在三十岁时心理最健康，反驳了婴儿会被宠坏的观念。
[00:14:25] The emotional system is not separate from the immune, hormonal, or nervous systems; suppressing emotions in childhood therefore disrupts all these systems, explaining why childhood trauma correlates strongly with adult autoimmune disease and malignancy. 情绪系统与免疫系统、激素系统或神经系统并不分离；因此，童年期压抑情绪会干扰所有这些系统，解释了为何童年创伤与成年期自身免疫疾病和恶性肿瘤高度相关。
[00:15:25] Women bear seventy to eighty percent of autoimmune diseases because they are culturally trained to suppress anger and emotions; similarly, Black Americans suppressing rage under racism show elevated rates of hypertension and autoimmune disease. 女性承担了七八成的自身免疫疾病，因为她们在文化上被训练压抑愤怒和情绪；同样，在种族主义下压抑愤怒的黑人美国人表现出更高的高血压和自身免疫疾病发生率。
[00:24:33] ADHD is not an inherited disease but a coping mechanism: a child stressed by a stressed parenting environment dissociates (tunes out) during the critical window of brain development, so the circuits for attention and impulse regulation never properly form. 多动症不是遗传疾病，而是一种应对机制：在大脑发育的关键窗口期，因父母压力而承压的孩子会解离（关闭注意力），导致注意力和冲动调节回路无法正常形成。
[00:29:41] Trauma produces six characteristic effects: disconnection from gut feelings, reduced response flexibility, a shame-based view of self (which can manifest as grandiose narcissism), a distorted worldview, and alienation from the present moment. 创伤产生六种特征性影响：与直觉脱节、反应灵活性降低、基于羞耻的自我观（可表现为浮夸的自恋）、扭曲的世界观，以及与当下的疏离。
[00:35:47] Shame-based self-view shows up either as persistent self-deprecation or, when shame is unbearable, as grandiose narcissism — the latter type cannot tolerate losing and often rises to lead corporations or governments. 基于羞耻的自我观表现为持续的自我贬低，或者当羞耻难以承受时，表现为浮夸的自恋——后者无法忍受失败，常常升至领导企业或政府的位置。
[00:52:41] Genetic temperament determines degree of sensitivity — sensitive people feel more deeply, enabling creativity and intuition, but also making them more susceptible to trauma and more likely to develop depression or ADHD when their environment is adverse. 基因气质决定敏感程度——敏感的人感受更深，使其具有创造力和直觉力，但在不利环境中也更容易受到创伤，更可能发展出抑郁症或多动症。
[00:54:47] Compassion toward traumatized or toxic individuals must be bidirectional: self-compassion is equally essential; gut feelings must guide when to stay and when to distance, otherwise the caregiver exploits themselves and burns out. 对受创伤或有毒性的人的同情必须是双向的：自我同情同样不可或缺；直觉必须指导何时留下、何时保持距离，否则照顾者会剥削自己并最终精疲力竭。
Selected quotes · 摘引
“Trauma is not what happens to you, it is what happens inside you.” — 00:11:51
这句话的翻译（非引文）：创伤不是发生在你身上的事，而是在你内心发生的事。
“What we call later on a disease begins as a coping mechanism.” — 00:27:38
翻译：我们后来称之为疾病的东西，起初是一种应对机制。
“You can’t spoil babies. It’s not possible. It’s not possible to spoil a baby.” — 00:09:48
翻译：不可能把婴儿宠坏。这是不可能的。宠坏一个婴儿是不可能的。
“The issue wasn’t pure happiness or unhappiness. It was the freedom or the lack of it to be emotionally expressive.” — 00:16:26
翻译：问题不在于幸福或不幸福本身，而在于能否自由表达情感。
“With our thoughts, with our beliefs, we create the world because if I see the world that way, I’m going to behave in certain ways.” — 00:42:57
翻译：我们用思想、用信念创造世界——因为如果我以那种方式看待世界，我就会以某种方式行动。
People & works · 人物与著作
Gabor Maté — Canadian physician and author; primary interviewee; presents the thesis of The Myth of Normal and discusses ADHD (from his earlier book Scattered Minds). 加博尔·马泰 —— 加拿大医生和作家；主要受访者；阐述《正常的神话》的论点，并讨论多动症（源自其早期著作《涣散的心灵》）。
Shefali Tsabary — Psychologist and author; interviewer; references her books The Conscious Parent, The Parenting Map, and A Radical Awakening. 谢法利·扎巴里 —— 心理学家和作家；采访者；提及其著作《有觉知的父母》《育儿地图》和《彻底觉醒》。
Benjamin Spock — Historical figure; referenced as a parenting authority who described the crying infant’s wish to be held as “the tyranny of the infant.” 本杰明·斯波克 —— 历史人物；作为育儿权威被提及，他将哭泣婴儿希望被抱的愿望描述为”婴儿的专制”。
Lydia Temoshok — Researcher; referenced for her work on the “Type C” personality — a highly self-sacrificing, compliant personality type associated with elevated rates of serious illness. 莉迪亚·泰莫霍克 —— 研究者；因其关于”C型”人格的研究被提及——一种高度自我牺牲、顺从的人格类型，与较高的重病发生率相关。
The Myth of Normal — Gabor Maté’s book (2022); central subject of the interview. 《正常的神话》 —— 加博尔·马泰的著作（2022年）；访谈的核心主题。
Scattered Minds — Gabor Maté’s first book; on ADHD; Maté holds up a copy during the interview. 《涣散的心灵》 —— 加博尔·马泰的第一本书；关于多动症；马泰在访谈中举起了一本。
Source · 来源
- Original · 原始链接: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySuwScZG6vI
- Channel/Show · 频道/节目: Liz Bonney · published 2025-10-28