Summary · 摘要
This webinar, hosted by Sinai Temple and moderated by attorney Rahel Bayar, brings together Dr. Gabor Maté and Rabbi David Wolpe — two prominent Jewish public figures with sharply divergent views — to discuss the Israel-Gaza war following the Hamas attack on October 7, 2023. Over ninety minutes they debate Israel’s right to exist, the origins and ethics of Zionism, the nature of Hamas, the question of civilian hostages, and the conditions for a durable peace. Maté grounds his arguments exclusively in Israeli and Jewish sources, insisting that the expulsion of Palestinians in 1947–48 is historically indisputable and that the occupation must end as a precondition for peace. Wolpe affirms Israel’s unequivocal right to exist, emphasises the long history of Jewish persecution including in Arab lands, and holds Hamas’s rejection of Israel and its October 7 atrocities as central obstacles to any settlement.
本次网络研讨会由西奈神庙主办，由律师拉赫尔·拜亚尔主持，邀请加博尔·马泰博士与大卫·沃尔普拉比——两位观点鲜明对立的犹太裔公众人物——就哈马斯2023年10月7日袭击后的以色列-加沙战争展开对话。双方在约九十分钟内就以色列的生存权、犹太复国主义的起源与伦理、哈马斯的性质、平民人质问题以及持久和平的条件进行了深入辩论。马泰仅引用以色列和犹太来源，坚持认为1947至1948年巴勒斯坦人被驱逐的历史事实无可辩驳，并主张结束占领是实现和平的前提条件。沃尔普则坚定肯定以色列无可争议的生存权，强调包括在阿拉伯世界在内犹太人长期遭受迫害的历史，并将哈马斯否认以色列存在权及其10月7日暴行视为达成任何和解的核心障碍。
Key points · 要点
[00:07:36] Maté opens by acknowledging nearly 50 years of engagement with the Israel-Palestine question, noting it involves overlapping trauma vortices — Jewish historical trauma and Palestinian historical trauma — and a universal human tendency to see oneself as victim rather than examine one’s own contribution to conflict. 马泰首先承认他与以色列-巴勒斯坦问题打交道近五十年，指出这一问题涉及交叠的”创伤漩涡”——犹太历史创伤与巴勒斯坦历史创伤——以及人类普遍倾向于将自己视为受害者而非审视自身对冲突的贡献。
[00:09:38] Maté argues that Israel’s right to exist is not in question — it is a recognized state — but that its founding through the dispossession and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians must be honestly examined, just as Canada’s and America’s founding violence against indigenous peoples must be. 马泰认为，以色列的生存权并非问题所在——它是一个被承认的国家——但其建立过程中对巴勒斯坦人的驱逐和种族清洗必须被诚实审视，正如加拿大和美国对原住民的建国暴力同样需要被审视一样。
[00:12:12] Wolpe counters that Israel’s right to exist is in fact denied by Hamas and widely contested at elite universities, and that every country which has accepted Israel’s existence lives in peace with it, while those that do not remain hostile. 沃尔普反驳称，以色列的生存权实际上遭到哈马斯的否认，并在精英大学中受到广泛质疑；他指出，每个承认以色列存在的国家都与之和平共处，而那些不承认的则持续对立。
[00:17:50] Maté traces the founding dilemma of Zionism — a legitimate response to Jewish suffering that could only be realised by displacing a population already living in Palestine — quoting a 1925 German Zionist and David Ben-Gurion to show that Zionist leaders themselves acknowledged the injustice to Palestinians. 马泰追溯犹太复国主义的建国困境——这是对犹太人苦难的合理回应，但只能通过迁移巴勒斯坦原有居民来实现——他引用1925年一位德国犹太复国主义者和大卫·本-古里安的话，表明犹太复国主义领袖们自己也承认对巴勒斯坦人的不公。
[00:24:32] Wolpe introduces the counter-narrative of the 750,000 Jews ethnically cleansed from Arab lands who came to Israel, noting that the majority population in Israel is from the Middle East, not Europe, and challenging the idea of a “guiltless” Arab population that Jews simply descended upon. 沃尔普提出反叙事：75万被从阿拉伯国家驱逐的犹太人涌入以色列，指出以色列大多数人口来自中东而非欧洲，并质疑”无辜的”阿拉伯人仅仅被犹太人入侵这一说法。
[00:35:46] Maté quotes Nahum Goldmann — founder of the World Jewish Congress and president of the World Zionist Organization for 27 years — as saying in 1970 that Israel had never in 30 years presented the Arabs with a single genuine peace plan, challenging the dominant narrative that the Palestinians have always rejected Israeli peace offers. 马泰引用世界犹太人大会创始人、世界犹太复国主义组织主席纳胡姆·戈德曼1970年的话——称以色列三十年来从未向阿拉伯人提出任何真正的和平方案——质疑巴勒斯坦人始终拒绝以色列和平提案的主流叙事。
[00:50:36] When asked directly whether Hamas’s October 7 attack was criminal, Maté calls it “a crime” and “an act of criminal stupidity,” because Hamas knew the ferocity of Israel’s likely response. He simultaneously insists the Palestinian right to resist occupation is never asked about with equal weight. 当被直接问及哈马斯10月7日袭击是否属于犯罪行为时，马泰称其为”一种罪行”和”犯罪性愚蠢之举”，因为哈马斯清楚以色列可能作出猛烈回应。与此同时，他坚持认为巴勒斯坦人抵抗占领的权利从未被以同等分量加以追问。
[00:53:10] Maté provides historical context for Hamas’s origins: a founding leader witnessed Israeli soldiers massacre civilians in Gaza in 1953 as an 8-year-old boy; Hamas itself did not exist 50 years ago; and it won what international observers described as the freest election ever held in an Arab country, only to be blockaded afterward. 马泰提供了哈马斯起源的历史背景：一位创始领袖8岁时亲眼目睹以色列士兵于1953年在加沙屠杀平民；哈马斯本身在五十年前并不存在；它赢得了国际观察员所描述的阿拉伯国家有史以来最自由的选举，随后却遭到封锁。
[01:14:08] Maté argues that under international law an occupying power has no right to arrest people who oppose the occupation, and that most Palestinians held in Israeli jails are there for non-violent acts of resistance, not terrorism — citing Israeli human rights organizations and the newspaper Haaretz as sources. 马泰援引以色列人权组织及《国土报》为据，论称根据国际法，占领国无权逮捕反对占领的民众，而以色列监狱中绝大多数巴勒斯坦人是因非暴力抵抗行为而非恐怖主义入狱。
[01:29:16] In his closing remarks, Maté states the minimum conditions for peace: Israel must end the occupation, accept a Palestinian state, acknowledge the historical expulsion of 1947–48, and negotiate the refugee issue in principle — noting the Arab states have already offered normalisation based on 1967 borders that Israel has not accepted. 在结语中，马泰阐述了实现和平的最低条件：以色列必须结束占领、承认巴勒斯坦国、承认1947至1948年的历史性驱逐，并在原则上就难民问题进行谈判——他指出阿拉伯国家已基于1967年边界提出关系正常化方案，而以色列尚未接受。
[01:32:20] Wolpe closes by expressing hope for mutual acceptance, noting that Israel has made concrete territorial sacrifices for peace (Sinai, Gaza 2005), and voicing existential fear for a Jewish people that constitutes less than 0.1% of the world population while facing persistent calls for the state’s elimination. 沃尔普在结语中表达了对双方相互承认的希望，指出以色列已为和平作出实质性领土牺牲（西奈半岛、2005年加沙撤离），并为犹太民族表达了存亡层面的忧虑——犹太人占全球人口不足0.1%，却持续面临消灭国家的呼声。
Selected quotes · 摘引
“I have found over nearly 50 years now since my Zionist days that the conversation is emotionally fraught and it’s very difficult to even be heard or to hear the other, let alone to come to any kind of agreement.” — 00:08:07
马泰说，自他持犹太复国主义立场以来的近五十年里，他发现这场对话充满情绪张力，很难被倾听，更难以倾听对方，遑论达成任何共识。
“We may be a people without a home, but alas, there’s not a country without a people. Palestine has an existing population of 700,000. The people who have lived there for centuries and rightfully consider the country as their fatherland and homeland.” — 00:18:50
（马泰引用1925年一位德国犹太复国主义者的话）我们或许是没有家园的民族，但可惜这片土地并非无人之地。巴勒斯坦有70万现存人口，他们世代居住于此，理所当然地将这片土地视为祖国和故乡。
“On October the 7th, my response, as my two sons could tell you, was that Hamas committed a crime. It was that what Hamas did was criminal. And furthermore, it was an act of criminal stupidity.” — 00:51:07
马泰谈及10月7日时说，他当时的反应（正如两个儿子可以作证）是：哈马斯犯下了罪行，所作所为是犯罪性的，而且更是一种犯罪性的愚蠢之举。
“Whatever standard we apply to one side, we also apply to the other side. That’s all I’m asking for.” — 00:45:57
马泰说，他所要求的一切，不过是将适用于一方的标准同样适用于另一方。
“I am also terrified that this tiny people that is less than 0.1% of the world is quite literally clawing for its existence.” — 01:25:33
沃尔普说，他同样深感恐惧——这个占全球人口不足0.1%的微小民族，正在字面意义上为自身的生存而苦苦挣扎。
People & works · 人物与著作
Gabor Maté — retired Canadian physician, author, and public speaker; co-discussant presenting a critical analysis of Zionist history and Israeli policy, citing exclusively Israeli and Jewish sources. 加博尔·马泰 —— 退休的加拿大医师、作家及公众演讲者；以共同讨论者身份对犹太复国主义历史及以色列政策进行批判性分析，仅引用以色列和犹太来源。
David Wolpe — Rabbi Emeritus of Sinai Temple, Los Angeles; teaches at Harvard Divinity School; author of eight books; co-discussant defending Israel’s right to exist and emphasising Jewish existential vulnerability. 大卫·沃尔普 —— 洛杉矶西奈神庙荣誉拉比，现执教于哈佛神学院，著有八本书；以共同讨论者身份捍卫以色列的生存权并强调犹太人的生存脆弱性。
Rahel Bayar — founder of the Bayar Group, former sex crimes and child abuse prosecutor, moderator of the conversation. 拉赫尔·拜亚尔 —— 拜亚尔集团创始人，前性犯罪与儿童虐待检察官，本次对话主持人。
Nahum Goldmann — founder of the World Jewish Congress, president of the World Zionist Organization for 27 years; quoted by Maté for his 1970 statement that Israel had never presented a genuine peace plan to the Arabs. 纳胡姆·戈德曼 —— 世界犹太人大会创始人，世界犹太复国主义组织主席任期长达27年；马泰援引其1970年的声明，称以色列从未向阿拉伯人提出过任何真正的和平方案。
David Ben-Gurion — first Prime Minister of Israel; quoted by Maté acknowledging that the Zionist project required taking Palestinian land and that Palestinians had every reason to reject it. 大卫·本-古里安 —— 以色列首任总理；马泰援引其言，表明犹太复国主义工程需要占取巴勒斯坦土地，巴勒斯坦人有充分理由拒绝接受。
Marek Edelman — second-in-command of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, later a cardiologist and lifelong defender of Palestinian rights; cited by Maté as an example of someone who condemned anti-civilian terrorism on both sides while supporting the right to resist occupation. 马雷克·埃德尔曼 —— 华沙隔都起义副指挥官，后成为心脏病学家，终身捍卫巴勒斯坦权利；马泰以其为例，说明一个人可以同时谴责双方针对平民的恐怖主义，并支持抵抗占领的权利。
Theodor Herzl — Hungarian-Jewish founder of modern political Zionism; mentioned by Maté in the context of early Zionist negotiations with Britain (Uganda offer, 1903 Zionist Congress). 西奥多·赫茨尔 —— 匈牙利裔犹太人，现代政治犹太复国主义的创始人；马泰在谈及早期犹太复国主义与英国的谈判（乌干达提案、1903年犹太复国主义代表大会）时提到他。
Sinai Temple — Los Angeles synagogue that hosted the webinar. 西奈神庙 —— 洛杉矶犹太会堂，本次网络研讨会的主办机构。
Source · 来源
- Original · 原始链接: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDs9rTdw4Mo
- Channel/Show · 频道/节目: Dr Gabor Maté YouTube channel · published 2024-01-24